What a nice analysis you have made on a subject that I had also tried to understand and adjust according to the different countries that I leaved in my life! Apart for the age and friendliness factors a very important parameter which has to be considered is the rank (or the position of the person has within the organisation that you are working) or the business relation that you have (as in a customer - client situation). The safest way which I usually follow is to address all the people which I am not very familiar with the typical title + Surname and then, if along the way they propose to switch to first name I usually follow. Of course there were cases where I preferred to keep the formal way of addressing someone and the purpose was simply because I wanted to maintain a distance...
It is important to differentiate the reasons why we might be using different ways to address people we know or we meet for first time as it defines in a way the level of intimacy that we wish (or not) to have and / or the social / professional distance that we need to maintain.
Dear Manolis/αξάερφε/Μανώλη μου (lots to choose from there, and each one sounds so different!). I also resort to the safe choice of the Title and Surname when unsure; I was told I was actually overdoing it with my university students in Iran. Funnily, in Iran the rank difference between student and staff member is very clear, but I opted for Title and Surname in order to create some semblance of egalitarianism, since no student would ever use my first name (the option does not even exist.) The whole discussion goes on to show how much there is beneath the surface. Thank you for engaging with this post; I loved reading your comments!
Thanks for this interesting post that explains very clearly another principle of the pragmatics and the verbal interactions.
Specially, I love it when you share your observations of interactions between Persian speakers and how you explain differences inside the community.
I would juste like to add the difference between "jan" and "joon". "Jan" puts some distance and "joon" is used in more intimate and close contexts.
Also, I would like to share my own experience of Iranian when I first came in France.
As a PhD student, I didn't had very much interaction with other students but I used to work a lot in the university libraries. I was very surprised to notice that younger students searching for a free place or information, began to adresse me with a "tu" ("Tu t'en vas ?", "Excuse-moi tu sais où est la cafette ?", "Excuse-moi, tu peux surveiller mes affaires ? "). In all the cases, we didn't know each other. Then I realized that in France, specially in the university context (specially in the left ones), it's a sign of solidarity to use tu.
Thank you for reading this post and for your valuable comments. Especially the Tu pronoun usage in French to convey solidarity brings me back to the classic Brown & Gilman Power and solidarity paper. Interestingly, in Iran I have observed an increase in the Tu pronoun usage but I am not sure it is always down to solidarity. I have also observed that many Iranians would use the Tu pronoun to me (a foreigner) while they would use the Vous pronoun to others of similar age and rank. The whole topic is so exciting I was actually considering it as my PhD topic before I decided on politeness in general. Thank you!
What a very interesting distinction you make between friendliness and informality, that is certainly food for thought!
My experience with cross-cultural terms of address happened when I was helping an Afghan woman to learn Dutch. Even after more than 3 years, she still insists on calling me 'u' (vous) instead of 'je' (tu). Although I know she means well and this is probably her way of expressing respect and gratefulness to me, I personally feel very uncomfortable and at times even offended by this. We are both young women in our twenties, and I consider ourselves friends, especially now that she passed all her exams and I'm not really helping her with Dutch anymore. I realised that her use of the formal term of address 'u' makes me feel like we are distant, we are not friends (friendliness). Personally, I would never even consider using 'u' with people who are below 50. Even if they are my superior in work or academics (informality). But it turns out that this is very hard to explain to someone whose native culture stresses the importance of these terms of respect. Of course the reverse is true for me: I find it hard to understand how addressing someone so formally can actually express appreciation.
Dear Anne Fleur, I loved reading your experiences with your Afghan student. I know from personal experience that I find it very hard to use informal/friendly pronouns and terms of address with someone who was my professor even decades after the relationship. I wonder whether some conceptualisations are too deeply embedded in our psyche to change. There is so much to write on terms of address and pronouns, that the whole newsletter could be taken over by these two topics alone. Thank you for sharing your insights!
That is so interesting! As she is a few years older than me, I expected the age difference to maybe cancel out the relation (we are very informal with most of our teachers in the Netherlands). In fact, I didn't really consider her a student, but more a friend with whom I'd hang out and do some Dutch exercises. I remember specifically requesting not to get paid for the "lessons", because I'd much rather have a friend than a more formalized relationship. But maybe the teacher/student relationship was present from her perspective, I never thought of it that way!
(I also do now realise that I have been addressing you as Sofia since the very beginning. I hope this is not offensive to you, but if you'd rather change the way I address you, please let me know)
Dear sofia (Mrs Doctor as well). It makes no difference in my interest in you.You’ve made a positive difference in my life and I never foget those enjoyable chat with you.
In this lovely piece, you mentioned important points which are challenging.
I read somwhere , maybe an interesting point is that if you forget someone's name in Iran , just use a title and you can get away with it.
Dear Akram, thank for engaging with this post and, of course, for inspiring the postcard. You are right on both counts: that sometimes the actual term of address makes no difference in how you feel about someone, and that in Iran a title of a honorific will do the trick!
Dear Sofia / αξαέρφη ..
What a nice analysis you have made on a subject that I had also tried to understand and adjust according to the different countries that I leaved in my life! Apart for the age and friendliness factors a very important parameter which has to be considered is the rank (or the position of the person has within the organisation that you are working) or the business relation that you have (as in a customer - client situation). The safest way which I usually follow is to address all the people which I am not very familiar with the typical title + Surname and then, if along the way they propose to switch to first name I usually follow. Of course there were cases where I preferred to keep the formal way of addressing someone and the purpose was simply because I wanted to maintain a distance...
It is important to differentiate the reasons why we might be using different ways to address people we know or we meet for first time as it defines in a way the level of intimacy that we wish (or not) to have and / or the social / professional distance that we need to maintain.
Dear Manolis/αξάερφε/Μανώλη μου (lots to choose from there, and each one sounds so different!). I also resort to the safe choice of the Title and Surname when unsure; I was told I was actually overdoing it with my university students in Iran. Funnily, in Iran the rank difference between student and staff member is very clear, but I opted for Title and Surname in order to create some semblance of egalitarianism, since no student would ever use my first name (the option does not even exist.) The whole discussion goes on to show how much there is beneath the surface. Thank you for engaging with this post; I loved reading your comments!
Dear Sofia,
Thanks for this interesting post that explains very clearly another principle of the pragmatics and the verbal interactions.
Specially, I love it when you share your observations of interactions between Persian speakers and how you explain differences inside the community.
I would juste like to add the difference between "jan" and "joon". "Jan" puts some distance and "joon" is used in more intimate and close contexts.
Also, I would like to share my own experience of Iranian when I first came in France.
As a PhD student, I didn't had very much interaction with other students but I used to work a lot in the university libraries. I was very surprised to notice that younger students searching for a free place or information, began to adresse me with a "tu" ("Tu t'en vas ?", "Excuse-moi tu sais où est la cafette ?", "Excuse-moi, tu peux surveiller mes affaires ? "). In all the cases, we didn't know each other. Then I realized that in France, specially in the university context (specially in the left ones), it's a sign of solidarity to use tu.
Voilà :)
Looking forward to read more of your posts.
Keep safe,
Dear Shima
Thank you for reading this post and for your valuable comments. Especially the Tu pronoun usage in French to convey solidarity brings me back to the classic Brown & Gilman Power and solidarity paper. Interestingly, in Iran I have observed an increase in the Tu pronoun usage but I am not sure it is always down to solidarity. I have also observed that many Iranians would use the Tu pronoun to me (a foreigner) while they would use the Vous pronoun to others of similar age and rank. The whole topic is so exciting I was actually considering it as my PhD topic before I decided on politeness in general. Thank you!
Dear Sofia,
What a very interesting distinction you make between friendliness and informality, that is certainly food for thought!
My experience with cross-cultural terms of address happened when I was helping an Afghan woman to learn Dutch. Even after more than 3 years, she still insists on calling me 'u' (vous) instead of 'je' (tu). Although I know she means well and this is probably her way of expressing respect and gratefulness to me, I personally feel very uncomfortable and at times even offended by this. We are both young women in our twenties, and I consider ourselves friends, especially now that she passed all her exams and I'm not really helping her with Dutch anymore. I realised that her use of the formal term of address 'u' makes me feel like we are distant, we are not friends (friendliness). Personally, I would never even consider using 'u' with people who are below 50. Even if they are my superior in work or academics (informality). But it turns out that this is very hard to explain to someone whose native culture stresses the importance of these terms of respect. Of course the reverse is true for me: I find it hard to understand how addressing someone so formally can actually express appreciation.
I'd be happy to hear your thoughts!
Dear Anne Fleur, I loved reading your experiences with your Afghan student. I know from personal experience that I find it very hard to use informal/friendly pronouns and terms of address with someone who was my professor even decades after the relationship. I wonder whether some conceptualisations are too deeply embedded in our psyche to change. There is so much to write on terms of address and pronouns, that the whole newsletter could be taken over by these two topics alone. Thank you for sharing your insights!
That is so interesting! As she is a few years older than me, I expected the age difference to maybe cancel out the relation (we are very informal with most of our teachers in the Netherlands). In fact, I didn't really consider her a student, but more a friend with whom I'd hang out and do some Dutch exercises. I remember specifically requesting not to get paid for the "lessons", because I'd much rather have a friend than a more formalized relationship. But maybe the teacher/student relationship was present from her perspective, I never thought of it that way!
(I also do now realise that I have been addressing you as Sofia since the very beginning. I hope this is not offensive to you, but if you'd rather change the way I address you, please let me know)
Dear sofia (Mrs Doctor as well). It makes no difference in my interest in you.You’ve made a positive difference in my life and I never foget those enjoyable chat with you.
In this lovely piece, you mentioned important points which are challenging.
I read somwhere , maybe an interesting point is that if you forget someone's name in Iran , just use a title and you can get away with it.
Dear Akram, thank for engaging with this post and, of course, for inspiring the postcard. You are right on both counts: that sometimes the actual term of address makes no difference in how you feel about someone, and that in Iran a title of a honorific will do the trick!